Channel Mastery - Ep.186: Shane Kinkennon, executive coach

Shane Kinkennon

CEO Coaching, adapting to change, and sustaining a competitive advantage

featuring

Shane Kinkennon works with business owners, CEOs, and other C-level leaders seeking to cultivate the people and presence parts of executive leadership in service to driving standout business results. Shane helps clients evolve from that which has gotten them this far — being a top performer, subject matter expert, inventor, or engineer — to that which their business needs today. Most often, that is a leader with confidence and range in the soft-skills realm, one who engages in a manner that inspires, unlocks inner motivations, cultivates ingenuity, and facilitates vision and strategy that great teams can believe in. He has a growing practice sub-specialty in the outdoor industries.

Shane is a certified executive coach, certified master facilitator, and certified leadership-team coach. He is a former global-business chief strategy officer, a former nonprofit COO, and spent more than 20 years as a consultant to senior-leadership teams. In 2020 Shane and his husband moved to the high desert city of Grand Junction, Colorado for its world-class mountain biking and other outdoor-recreation opportunities.

show highlights

In this episode of Channel Mastery, we chat with Shane Kinkennon - an executive coach and master facilitator. Shane knows a lot about how wise business leaders respond to the pressure to change. We asked him to explain what exactly he observes from his CEO-level clients. He makes a compelling case that now is the time for brand leaders to think not only about the mechanics of adapting to change but the ins and outs of how they lead their teams and employees.

Shane argues that brands can’t wait until insane external pressures are in the rear-view mirror. To the contrary, the brands that will effectively adapt today and go on to sustain competitive advantage are helmed by leaders who invest their days not in infrastructure, system, and process, but what matters most: their people.

Kristin Carpenter: Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of The Channel Mastery podcast. I'm really excited to introduce today Shane Kinkennon who is a certified executive coach who works with CEOs and top leaders, and he excels at equipping leaders to lead change. And I have seen his work firsthand, and trust me, you are in for a treat today. Welcome to the show, Shane. It is wonderful to have you here.
Shane Kinkennon: Thank you, Kristin. Thanks for having me.
Kristin: Of course. I would love it if we could start the show by having you give a little bit of your background and what drew you to this type of work.
Shane: Yeah, so 10 years ago, well into kind of a career in which I had had successive leadership positions, I found myself increasingly fascinated less by the strategies and the plans and the tactics of the leading and more about the mindsets and behaviors of leading. That really culminated between the years of 2017 and 2020 when I found myself the chief strategy officer and then the chief operating officer at the American Council On Exercise. I loved the C-suite role, and that was a global business and I learned a ton. But what I think I learned most vividly, for purposes of answering your question right now, it is the substance of leadership, how we actually engage other humans that makes the biggest difference when it comes to people leading, driving change and actually gaining competitive advantage in the marketplace.
Kristin: I can only imagine. Hopefully you had the Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours happen in those 10 years, because then you got to COVID. And what was your great acceleration around your realization around mindset and leadership and driving change within teams?
Shane: I think there was a confluence of several factors, and like so many people who had big light bulbs come on early in the pandemic, I had one of those. In fact, I'd left my C-suite job and went out on my own to work full time in working with CEOs to help them to be the best leader they can be in service to driving business results and to help executive teams be high function, to be great for their people in service to business results. And I think all of it was just it became clear to me as I watched... The pandemic started and it felt like the world was turning on edge, and suddenly it felt like life was short. I knew then I wanted to be doing what I really wanted to be doing and I wanted to be sure that my work was at a point of high leverage and at least had a decent chance of making a positive impact on the world, I guess, is what I would say.
Kristin: That's perfect. And I also have to say, I've said this before on the show, but I feel like you're dealing with a high level of neuroplasticity right now with your CEOs and your C-suite clients, and so let's dive into some questions here to just knowing that it is such a great time to tap into your expertise. And I know that you've been incredibly busy helping leaders through this time because there is just incredible, incredible change still happening in all facets of our business as well as company cultures. I'm going to just go ahead and dive right in. In your experience, what is the secret recipe of many CEOs and other executives who have really figured out how to lead change?
Shane: Kristin, this answer might land as surprisingly simple or even obvious, and I'm going to explain it and why it's not quite as obvious as people think, is really folks have learned how to lean on their people. I don't mean in this kind of specifics, okay, I've got to lead change, we have to talk to people this way. Though that's not bad, it's more fundamentally... It's like fundamental philosophy. They've essentially figured out how to routinely transfer agency to their best and brightest. By that, I mean giving their folks more latitude to experiment and to fast fail.
They've even figured out how to transfer decision rights. Decision rights is not a phrase that a lot of folks use in the executive suite yet. It's a key thing that can be a difference maker in businesses, which is being intentional about where decision rights reside. We know from a whole body of research that CEOs that push decision rights downward, meaning essentially give their smart folks more latitude to make consequential decisions, get more ingenuity, more innovation, and more heart in it from their top folks. It actually makes a huge difference, so I think that, really, it's... The leaders who are really doing well in this are... they're leading with questions and not answers. They're engaging in dialogue and debate more than ever, even passive coercion. When things go wrong, they come to autopsies without blame. It's all about pushing agency outward and treating... As Jim Goodnight, the longtime founder and longtime CEO of SAS said, they treat employees like they make a difference and they will. You see, the causal relationship is that it's flipped. It's not wait until employees make a difference and then treat them like they did, it's treat employees like they make a difference and they will. It's really a fascinating way to show up as a leader every day.
Kristin: That's so interesting because if you think about how so many executives got into their positions, it's decades of experience, decades of network building. And course they're able to navigate challenge and rise to the occasion; they've proven that through the past 24 months. But ultimately this is a much faster time of change. It's almost like they're changing their leadership style while everything is changing in business because ultimately, as we've and seen, I think, firsthand, culture is what's winning the day, especially with the great resignation, right?
Shane: Yep.
Kristin: Really, what I'm hearing you say is you have to be able to almost have a flat structure, if you will, among, I don't know, is it mid-level managers? Is it your entire management team? To be able to pass agency to them and enable them to fail without getting in trouble for it, et cetera. It's almost like they have to rewire what they were taught, all of their experience, and then call together the people that they trust to share that agency. Would you agree?
Shane: Yes and no, Kristin. It's interesting; what I'm describing can take place no matter the organizational structure. It does not necessarily, for instance, imply a flatter org structure; that those have those benefits as do hierarchicals. It's more about a mindset within whatever structure takes place.
And maybe this would be a good way to explain it slightly differently. John Hillenl and then Mark Nevins and their masterful book for CEOs called What Happens Now? The subhead is Reinvent your leadership before your business out... They say something to the effect of know when it's time to take your hands off the levers of running the business and focus on the personalities of the people running the business. What they describe in that book is this what you've talked about, which is folks who have come up being technicians, innovators, just enthusiastic doers, so many top leaders and other C-suite occupants still channel that mindset, and they describe it as bringing their skill at addressing challenges of complexity. That has to do with organizational structures, plan, product, technology as opposed to challenges of sophistication, which are motivational, political, people dynamics, and the like. No matter the organizational structure and when leaders actually start to think more about the people running the business as opposed to actually running the business and then teach the people directly underneath them to do the same, you get far higher functioning businesses, which, oh, by the way, produce better results in the end, up to and including your topic for the day, which is adapting to crazy circumstances and changing.
Kristin: Right. And also having continuity on your team because they love having that trust and the responsibility, I would imagine.
Shane: Right. And here's another piece of it. You can imagine when really smart people who have a lot of options in this super dynamic workforce are treated really well. When this smart boss asks what I think and is genuinely curious, it gives me the opportunity to make some risky choices and doesn't punish me if things go sideways but instead celebrates the learning all in service to growth in the business. I'm more likely to stick around. You are too.
Kristin: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I have one for you. I swear, none of these are from my own situation. Just kidding. No. Okay, so there are so many pressures that we're managing every day, and there's the list that we carry over every day, every day. Sometimes you get to knock a few things off of it, and it sounds like with this new approach in working with a team that may not be the case anymore. But looking at the pressures and just everything that's cropping up on a day-to-day basis and the fact that clarity in leadership can build trust with a team, it's I think more and more challenging than ever to have that clarity, and so I'm wondering how you coach your CEOs to lead when it's more difficult than ever to have that clarity.
Shane: It's a great question, Kristin, and I do talk about this a lot. There is... Well, maybe I'll put it this way. It is a marvel to me to watch C-suite leaders say that they could never sharpen the business' focus because there's so much opportunity, and my business is just so much more complex than any other business, just so much more complex. Yet the experts say, grounded in significant bodies of data, that the companies that thrive and sustain thriving do discipline of focus really, really well.
And here's what I mean by that. If you don't mind, I'm going to reference a couple of more books.
Kristin: Please do.
Shane: One was Jim Collins and Good to Great. Good to Great was actually the story of he... He's a PhD level guy and a whole team of researchers, they studied 18 companies that had achieved very high performance... They were publicly traded companies, some big ones, that achieved very high performance and sustained it over a long period of time. High performance was defined by some very specific metrics.
What he found is that each of them actually mapped... He dubbed, this is kind of a cute name, the hedgehog concept. Hedgehogs, pretty simple creatures. And what he called the hedgehog is that they essentially identified three truths. Well, so they were able to figure out what is the business... What can the business do better than any other company in the world? That was one truth; that had to be it. The second question they had to answer is what is actually the niche that we specifically occupy so that we could do it in? And what is the economic engine that could drive it? Companies that figured out niche, passion, engine and focused all of their effort and resources on that go on to thrive and sustain thriving.
Gino Wickman in the book Traction, which is this great guide for small businesses that want to grow fast, he invites senior leaders to answer a very specific question. I actually find it to be extraordinarily powerful as do my clients, which is this: Why is it important that our business exists? It's worth saying it again. Why is it important that our business exists? We think that pondering mission is the business of nonprofits or something, but that sounds very missional, doesn't it? But we ask why is it important that our business exists and answer that question, it can bring clarity of focus. And we know for a fact that companies that close shutter, sell the stuff that is distraction and focus on that one thing that they can be the best in the world at and everybody in the business just gets excited about, they go on to excel, adapt to changing times and succeed.
Kristin: That's fantastic advice. And I feel like sometimes we do need to level set and really look back at that because I think that a lot of us have been really challenged in terms of just basic survival and a lot of opportunities, especially in the outdoor recreation space, which is another question I had for you because I know that you do work with several leaders and C-suite leaders in winter outdoors cycling and other outdoor recreation categories. We obviously are sitting just at this precipice right now of remarkable growth, and a lot of it has come through as brand new participants coming through from COVID and everybody's wondering how do we hold onto these folks, et cetera? I'm thinking about what you just said in terms of why do we exist? But what do you see as the golden opportunity for these folks that you're managing in outdoor recreation?
Shane: What I observe in my work with leaders in outdoor recreation and outdoor adventure right now is, no surprise, passionate, committed people who are working feverishly to durably - and I think that's the word - to durably capitalize on what the pandemic has essentially present. At the same time, they're also trying to figure out what does it look like to respond responsibly, I guess is the word kind, with wisdom and skillfulness to the pressures that were unimaginable not so long ago? And I'm talking pressures like the threat that climate change poses to out outdoor recreation and our wild spaces, the necessity to welcome and include and by-and-by create convincing, legitimate belonging for a different demographic of outdoor enthusiasts. These are hard topics, but I really see executive leaders in outdoor recreation showing up with heart even though it’s profound change. It feels like pressures that weren't imagined so long ago.
And if you think about it, so many folks in this amazing industry are folks who are just, they're in the business because they love to be outside playing. But what is required right now is really twofold, is for these businesses to think... to geek out a little bit more on the mechanics of running a business that is responsive and adaptive. Some of it is just management 101 and changing times, but also, it requires being a little more people-centric. Setting the stage for bottom up innovation inside the business, which requires a measure of humility. Us leaders have got to... we've just got to accept the fact that all the great ideas, the answers, the innovations can't come from us. In fact, they're often better when they come from down within the ranks, so creating the conditions in which those can rise. Businesses are going to adapt to this amazing new opportunity to get more people driving joy from playing outside.
Kristin: Right. I love that. And I just want to say, before we hit record today, we were discussing our interview today, and you said something that I think I want to really emphasize here and that is when you're thinking of your workforce and your team, remind others that we believe in them. It's so simple, but at the same time I think that through COVID people have really evolved to look at their workplace and the people that they work with and what their brands stand for as a way to tether themselves and self-identify with what they also believe in. If they're believing in the brand and you're mirroring that back to them by reminding your team that you believe in them. I don't know if you can offer a few examples of that, but that I think is golden, especially as we're working hard to keep our key people and our great people who make our brands what they are.
Shane: Kristin, you referenced this in our conversation earlier before you hit record that at work we want our employers more than ever before to be values driven in some way or another. And essentially, the great people, the kind of people we really want in our workforces who not just do the basics like show up on time and don't lie but actually are ingenious and creative and go above and beyond and have a sense of loyalty and duty and are great for everybody else so they bring out the best in others. And those great folks, they want to work for value-centric entities.
Now, a key thing is... Here I go with these quotes again. By the way, they're on the wall around me so they're easy for me to reference them. I think I have them all memorized these days. Think of what world renowned adventure racer Robyn Benincasa said: "You don't inspire your teammates by showing them how amazing you are, you inspire them by showing them how amazing they are." We inspire our people by showing them how amazing they are, but so often we as leaders, we may have a little vein of insecurity. Do we really belong here? [inaudible 00:23:07] thing. We try to convince everybody that we have all the answers. Imagine that all of us at once flipped that and just spent our days rather than trying to show any of our people how amazing we are, we have great strategies, we have crafty ideas, we have all the answers, but instead just spend our days like how can I go in and show my people how amazing they are today? And I just did it day over day. What might be the long term outcome for this business?
Second quote, Eleanor Roosevelt said, "A good leader inspires people to have confidence in the leader. A great leader inspires people to have confidence in themselves." It's the same thing that we're talking about right now.
Kristin: Oh, I love that. And by the way, we will put all of these books in the show notes at veredepr.com on the blog underneath where we're going to be positioning this podcast on the site. Keep in mind, everything will be there. And Sean is a walking, talking treasure trove of quotes and books around great leadership, which is, again, why I wanted him to be on the show today, because if ever there was a time, for such a time is now.
That leads me to my next question. I'm looking at how a lot of CEOs are reconsidering so much, and I think looking in the mirror and also realizing that how they lead to better equip their business and maneuver also must change as their businesses and the economy and everything keeps changing around them, correct? We have a lot of challenges from the supply chain, from operational challenges, travel is starting to open again, there's just so many things changing in terms of budgets and also how we get products to market. That's the number one change that everybody wants to invest in. But leaders need to invest in themselves, especially right now. You can't be a lone Wolf leader right now, I don't think, and really show up to create the type of culture and environment that your high performance team is going to need to drive toward this opportunity. Can you give a few maybe insights around a CEO or a C-suite leader who might be on the fence in terms of investing in their own leadership development right now?
Shane: Yeah, Kristin, I can. And it's neat, I actually am very intentional with my words on this topic. I know that sounds like a weird thing to say, but let me tell you where I'm going with this. While certainly a top... Company owners, CEO, other C-suite members truly need to invest in themselves. The more pressures to lead change, the more essential it is to invest in the details of how we lead.
But here's why I was going with the word choices. When I am actually talking with prospective clients, what I try to convince them is the cold hard truth, which is that because of the seat that you occupy, where you are the one making the most consequential choices and your behaviors have the greatest ripple effects, investing in yourself and the way you lead as a way to invest in business results. All of my client engagement... Just to be clear, I don't work with folks who pay for it themselves, it's the business investing in the leader being the best possible leader for the business so the business can adapt, take advantage of new market opportunities, change in a manner that is durable and sustainable, and meet the moment.
While it may seem like…Imagine conscientious leaders trying to figure out supply chain constraints, new go-to-market strategies. And we're like, oh, and I'm supposed to think about how I lead them? How self-indulgent could that possibly be? But where I observe the light bulb coming on is when they're like, "Oh, it's not really about me." Because I don't spend any time with people talking about their career and how to get their next marquee gig. That's not really what the folks who I work with are interested in, it's not really what I'm interested in. It's like, how can you make little calibrations to have big impact on your business' ability to meet this moment?
Kristin: Right. And I want to just say, as a person who's pretty much obsessed with cycling and I watch a lot of racing, et cetera, and I've watched it for years, when I see a legacy cyclist start to really throw down some great results, 100% of the time it's because they're working with a mindset coach. And I'm not saying you're a mindset coach, but I will say that is the see change that can... That has to be the focus is what's going on in your thinking and ultimately what you're putting out there to your team, how you're showing up. And so I really feel like that's a super important thing. And I wanted to ask, is that a trap that you see well-intentioned CEOs and other senior leaders commonly fall into? They almost get out of their head and go into operations mode. Instead of their thinking, they're looking at streamlining or improving everything that they can do operationally. Tell me what your thoughts are on that. It feels like it's esoteric, but it's so important.
Shane: It's so important, Kristin. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, the mindset coach, it is actually a very appropriate... It's an appropriate term to decide what we're talking about. I can explain more about that.
But you might remember earlier I referenced the Hill and Evans explanation of the temptation to stay where most executive leaders are still comfortable, which is in addressing the challenges of complexity that had to do with operating, plans, implementation, organizations, structures, infrastructure technology tools. But where the best paid people in the organization can make the best impact is to look up and out rather than down and in. And a key part of looking up and out is transferring agency to other people who need to spend more of their time looking down and in to transfer the agency successively downward.
The fact is the most common thing that I work with CEOs... I've got a client who is a relatively new CEO. She's been a CEO for two years now. And we started together when she just had the faintest sense... She's like, "I'm still channeling my inner COO," which she had been for years, "and I don't think I'm quite doing the CEO thing yet. I seem to be doing fine, but it's just this nagging sense that I have." How we spend our time is me helping her think. It's not me telling her what to do, which is how great executive coaches work. She's brilliant, she's talented, she's the CEO. I'm not. It's helping her think about how she actually... What are the limiting beliefs... To your point about mindset coach, what are the limiting beliefs that she was entertaining? One of them was I have to oversee every operational detail of this business. But when she identified it, she's like, "Yes, it's not really what CEOs do," so she just started replacing it with a different mindset: my people are capable, therefore I can give myself permission to look up and out. It's not indulgent, it's what's needed, as one example. Thank you for mentioning that mindset coach idea. I positively love that.
Kristin: Me too. And here's another great one that I've heard a lot, especially as I've been organizing the Sea Otter Classic Summit with Lifetime, with executive leaders across these outdoor recreation markets that share a consumer at Sea Otter, it's basically redefining risk management. And I think because so much innovation and change is needed that risk management and the way we've managed that in the past is really, really, it's a whole new... It's not just new goal posts, it's a brand new game. And mindset, I think, feeds into that. But I'm curious if you can speak to the new era of what it looks like to successfully manage risk around key decisions as you're leading an organization today.
Shane: Yeah, I think there is a tendency that we all... Folks who find themselves in leadership are typically very conscientious folks. Conscientious folks, all of us are hardwired to believe failure equals bad, but the fact is great, nimble enterprises that figure out how to meet new market opportunities faster than others have a fast fail culture. They have an experimentation, learn, adapt, iterate, try again culture. And there's lots of ways to implement that inside an organization in a very tactical way, such as the... If I remember correctly, there was a Forbes article a few years ago that encouraged leaders to incentivize bottom up innovation where you essentially invite... Reward any creative thinking and experimentation in the realms of product, profit models, process, and policies inside the organization, and you reward the behavior, whether or not the outcome is.
When somebody tries something creative, even if it results in a mess, you reward the behavior because what it does is it cultivates a culture in which it's okay to actually learn. It's about having a learning mindset that is a through line across the business rather than constantly mitigating against any scenario in which something goes slightly wrong. It's about having a company full of innovators as opposed to essentially allowing fear to be a primary driver of how decisions are made.
Kristin: Right. That's perfect. That's perfectly put. And it is really easy to have that fear veil, especially going through the shock and awe of the last 24 months and also looking ahead. We don't really have the playbook, we're creating it, which is such an intensely opportune thing, but it's also a really scary thing. Replacing that fear mindset with a growth mindset is probably the best way to approach risk mitigation. And then also, when you fall in your face as a CEO or a C-suite leader, share it with your team and let them see that it's okay so that they can see it happening at the top and it's okay, which I do all the time.
Shane: Right, Kristin. You just described another key element of it is when... I'll spare you more books, but the idea of vulnerability in the top ranks, that is... It's not difficult to find leaders who find that absolutely anathema out of great leadership, but what we increasingly know is that it is okay for top leaders to be vulnerable.
And there's distinct signs. Leaders who are willing to say, or routinely say, "I don't know. I'm sorry, I actually got that one wrong. I apologize." Folks who are willing to say stuff like that are great indicators that the culture allows for, okay, we don't have to have the perfect decision every time, we don't have to be right every time. We can actually admit that we don't know so we're going to have to try some different things and see how they go. And for everything that doesn't work out right, we know more. When we adopt a learning culture, we become more adaptive by nature. But a key element is the vulnerability thing that you just flagged, so thank you for saying that.
Kristin: Yeah. That's the arena that Berne Broudy always writes about, and I just... It's intense and it's hard to be in that arena, but that's the job, you know?
Shane: Yeah.
Kristin: And if you're not willing to be in the arena, it's really impossible, in my opinion, to make the type of leadership and impression you need to to continue forward and make the best next steps happen with your company in an iterative way.
Shane: So true, isn't it?
Kristin: Yes. I know that you work a lot with teams and CEOs and C-suites, and I was wondering, have you heard yourself have a new common thread that you're sharing with them that really makes an impression as we're continuing to come through COVID? As I said at the beginning of the show, end of the first quarter 2022, is there now a plum line, if you will, that's resonating with them no matter what industry that they're in?
Shane: There is, Kristin, but I don't know that it's new. I find it as consistent in, for instance, the outdoor industry and in adjacent industries that still feel besieged to a way to industries that are entirely unrelated and feel less besieged. The growing recognition that being a people focus leader versus an operations and process focus leader is actually the key to run a really successful business. The consistent line that keeps me busy during my days is people figuring out how do... This people first stuff that you're talking about, how do I actually implement that in the day to day in a manner that is remotely authentic to me? Because I've been doing just fine all these years, fine enough, but somehow, some way my people aren't really responding. I'm trying to lead this change initiative, but nobody seems to care and I'm understand what's going on. You see what I mean?
Kristin: Yeah.
Shane: It's like, in every challenge, even when... In the instances in which I get to work, we're talking about the technicalities of some change initiative out there, but you know what I'm going to say. It always comes back to the people part; either internal people, key leaders who actually aren't bought in, they don't really believe it's the right way, their input wasn't drawn out, the team doesn't actually practice healthy conflict so people Arent actually voicing their opinions and feeling heard, there's low commitment to decisions, and all those kinds of dynamics that plague well intentioned leadership groups. These are all... they require soft skills. They are people dynamics.
Shane: But it's the same externally. Organizations, companies that are trying to move customers, business partners, who are like, "I just can't get traction where I want to," but when you really scratch, it's the people part of those things that are falling down. My idea that I'm arguing for makes sense, what they're not thinking about is how they're making the case, you know?
Kristin: Right. Yeah, the soft skills, I think we all have those inside even if you love to go back to a limiting belief like I'm not a people person. Like you're like your client who is in operations, we actually do have all these skills, we just need to be vulnerable with them and put them out there and lead with them and continue to try new things and see what resonates, I think. And that connection that we talk about... As a marketing person, we talk about that emotional connection. There's nothing more important than the living, breathing brand that you lead and the emotional connection your people have with that and with each other and with you. It's that simple. And I think when that connection is there, there's also grace. And when grace is there, you're able to be nimble and face plant and also be successful together.
Shane: That's right. That's right. I love the concept of grace in the work environment, Kristin, and I commend you for having the courage to call it out. Think about great companies out there in the business of making hubs, making packs, tetail storefronts that are easy walking distance and on and on and all the different sort of subsets of our entry, we're like, that is what we do. I'm not in the business of touchy, feely stuff. I'm not in the business of emotional intelligence, right?
Kristin: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Shane: I'm in the business of making bars that taste good and pack a nutritional punch. But at the end of the day, if you want to be... The competitors who will rise to the top in each of those categories are the ones who are doing exactly what you are describing, which is creating a powerful synergy between the people working for the brand and the brand, and that is all about people skills. No matter how on mechanical or technical the business, at the end, the ones who win will do the soft skills stuff really well. As you said a little while ago, it is the job, whether or not we want it to be, or whether or not that's how or why we came into it, being a great leader, people more than process and plans is actually the job. And that is where competitive advantage comes from.
Kristin: Right. That's awesome. Tell us where we can learn more about how you work with CEOs and other leaders, entrepreneurs, and founders. Where can we learn more about what you do and how can we follow you?
Shane: My little one person shop's website is pretty descriptive on all of that stuff, Kristin, so I'll spell it. It's my first and last name, very simply, which is Shane Kinkennon. I can spell that here. Shane, S-H-A-N-E K-I-N-K-E-N-N-O-N.com. That explains who I work with and how I work and what those engagements look like. And I'm also quite active on LinkedIn. I'm fortunate to have a number of followers. I sound off multiple days a week on a little tid... Clearly, I love my quotes so I serve a lot of that stuff up, no surprise to anybody who's just listened to me talk for this period of time.
Kristin: Awesome. And I do follow you on LinkedIn. There's a lot of gold there. Thank you so much. I would love to have you back on as a regular guest because I really have a feeling things are not going to be slowing down anytime soon here in our businesses, especially in outdoor rec. Thank you so much for joining us here today, and we would love to have you back soon in a few months.
Shane: Kristin, thank you. Obviously I love talking about matters of leadership, I get super enthusiastic about it, so I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to do so.
Kristin: Oh, absolutely. It's been super fun. Thanks so much.
Shane: Yeah. All right, bye.